General

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

Patrick Halstead — Fri, 02 Dec 2005 09:30:56 GMT

Hi David,
V1 is just the first version (version #1) of your solution.

Patrick Halstead [InfoPath MVP]
InfoPathDev

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

DavidCrabbe — Fri, 02 Dec 2005 04:01:43 GMT

David,

If installing a client application (InfoPath) is a major concern for your project, then consider using K2 in conjunction with K2 SmartForms. These are basically ASP.NET pages which allow you to directly manipulate the data used by the workflow.

Just my 2p,
David

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

Coita Thierry — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:58:19 GMT

Hi,

V1 is infopath without Service Pack 1!

Me I go drink some beer It's the wek-end now!!!

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

davidwii — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:34:45 GMT

I apologize for the ignorance, but what is a V1 solution?

Also, I'm not sure which book your referring too. Again, I apologize for my ignorance. Maybe its too early in the morning for me...:)

Thanks,

David

quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Halstead

Hi David,

I think VT's suggestion to look at K2 is good. I have heard many good things about it. BizTalk is big and requires a lot of config. Likely K2 will require config too, but I have heard that it's more intuitive.

However, you can use Forms-Based workflow to accomplish many of your needs and implement a V1 solution. Simplifying the workflow to use digital signatures, e-mail, and SQL-based storage will simplify your configuration dramatically and still result in a usable system.

Using a downlevel viewer such as InfoPathDev Forms Viewer can also meet your needs for a non-InfoPath based solution on clients but as VT indicates, there are data connection limitations. Currently, only the SQL Database Web Service is supported. Microsoft has announced a new Forms Server product that you can use starting next summer for clients that do not have InfoPath on the client.

Lastly, have you looked at Chapter 10 in our book?

Patrick Halstead [InfoPath MVP]
InfoPathDev

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

Patrick Halstead — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 07:26:12 GMT

Hi David,

I think VT's suggestion to look at K2 is good. I have heard many good things about it. BizTalk is big and requires a lot of config. Likely K2 will require config too, but I have heard that it's more intuitive.

However, you can use Forms-Based workflow to accomplish many of your needs and implement a V1 solution. Simplifying the workflow to use digital signatures, e-mail, and SQL-based storage will simplify your configuration dramatically and still result in a usable system.

Using a downlevel viewer such as InfoPathDev Forms Viewer can also meet your needs for a non-InfoPath based solution on clients but as VT indicates, there are data connection limitations. Currently, only the SQL Database Web Service is supported. Microsoft has announced a new Forms Server product that you can use starting next summer for clients that do not have InfoPath on the client.

Lastly, have you looked at Chapter 10 in our book?

Patrick Halstead [InfoPath MVP]
InfoPathDev

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

vt_asparagus — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:57:05 GMT

Going back to your large requirement that you do not want to do any new client installs, using InfoPath would be difficult but not impossible. Again some of these tools can help likehttp://www.infopathdev.com/webstore/detail.aspx?itemid=11 and others onhttp://www.infopathdev.com/downloads/free/default.aspx can help you get InfoPath deployed quickly on the web to be accessible via a browser. Some other people here may have more insight into this area than I do.

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

davidwii — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:49:27 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by vt_asparagus

I have not used the tools but I know they exist. The one night I investigated them, I noticed that many had limited capabilities around data sources. Maybe someone else has used them and could provide better insight.

Very good. Thanks for your help. Do you happen to know what kind of price range the K2 solutions have? I've visited their site and am still looking it over, but have yet to identify any pricing structures. So based upon your replies, at the core, it would seem that what my management is requesting is not possible.

I'm fully open to hear other opinions as well. Feel free to add to the discussion.

So as said, based upon your review, Infopath at its core cannot accomplish what's fully being requested. Had anyone utilized Infopath in additon to some custom ASP and/or ASP.NET custom coding and created an entirely web based application?

I would assume its not the easiest, since you've got so many third party vendors with available applications doing what I'm hoping to do without using third party.

David

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

vt_asparagus — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:07:28 GMT

I have not used the tools but I know they exist. The one night I investigated them, I noticed that many had limited capabilities around data sources. Maybe someone else has used them and could provide better insight.

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

davidwii — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:41:37 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by vt_asparagus

1 - InfoPath can be easily integrated with SharePoint using a forms list. Data can be promoted from InfoPath and shown in SharePoint to give you dashboard like functionality. You will need InfoPath installed on the client. There are some tools out there that will convert InfoPath in an webpage, look at bottom of this page. -http://www.infopathdev.com/downloads/free/default.aspx. There is also a tool available here on this website.

2 - You can publish an InfoPath form to SharePoint by going tools >> publish and selecting a SharePoint site.

3 - BizTalk can be used to do several things. BizTalk has Human Workflow Services (HWS) for which InfoPath can be integrated with. Although, it is complicated to work with. I would HIGHLY recommend looking into K2.net Worflow solution -http://www.k2workflow.com/. I have implemented it with some large multination companies to deliver end-to-end workflow applications. I will explain more about it here in a moment.

4 - Based on what you are talking about you may be going down a non-InfoPath path if you do not want to install InfoPath on client machines. InfoPath is a great Rapid Application Development tool that is apart of Office. It really depends on your requirements and I higly recommend using InfoPath based upon its RAD capabilities, lower learning curve to learn, that it completely built on independant standards like XML, XSD and XSLT, and InfoPath can be extended to use the .NET framework with its integration into Visual Studio.

Since you are talking about workflow, again I highly recommend K2. It provides a framework built on .NET for Human-to-Human routing capabilities. It also has out of the box integration with SharePoint, BizTalk, Business Rule Engine, InfoPath, ASP.net, ASP.net Smart forms, Exchange, Active Directory, Content Management Server, etc. It also has these great out of the box reporting capabilities to measure performance of deployed workflow solutions too. As well, its tight interation with BizTalk gives the K2 solution a nice System-to-System solution because it allows for integration to external systems. Notice as well, that K2 allows for development of multiple different UI protocals, meaning you can have a workflow solution that uses ASP.Net, InfoPath and WinForms all in the same solution. Contact me if you have any additional questions - vt_asparagus@yahoo.com - J

Awsome...Thanks. Regarding your Point #1, you mentioned converting an Infopath form to a webpage. When you convert it, does it just convert it into a plain vanilla HTML form? I would assume if your Infopath form is linked up to a database and such, and you export it, it probably doesn't just create a nice neat little ASP.NET package that you can just plug into IIS, right?

Thanks,
David

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

vt_asparagus — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:35:22 GMT

1 - InfoPath can be easily integrated with SharePoint using a forms list. Data can be promoted from InfoPath and shown in SharePoint to give you dashboard like functionality. You will need InfoPath installed on the client. There are some tools out there that will convert InfoPath in an webpage, look at bottom of this page. -http://www.infopathdev.com/downloads/free/default.aspx. There is also a tool available here on this website.

2 - You can publish an InfoPath form to SharePoint by going tools >> publish and selecting a SharePoint site.

3 - BizTalk can be used to do several things. BizTalk has Human Workflow Services (HWS) for which InfoPath can be integrated with. Although, it is complicated to work with. I would HIGHLY recommend looking into K2.net Worflow solution -http://www.k2workflow.com/. I have implemented it with some large multination companies to deliver end-to-end workflow applications. I will explain more about it here in a moment.

4 - Based on what you are talking about you may be going down a non-InfoPath path if you do not want to install InfoPath on client machines. InfoPath is a great Rapid Application Development tool that is apart of Office. It really depends on your requirements and I higly recommend using InfoPath based upon its RAD capabilities, lower learning curve to learn, that it completely built on independant standards like XML, XSD and XSLT, and InfoPath can be extended to use the .NET framework with its integration into Visual Studio.

Since you are talking about workflow, again I highly recommend K2. It provides a framework built on .NET for Human-to-Human routing capabilities. It also has out of the box integration with SharePoint, BizTalk, Business Rule Engine, InfoPath, ASP.net, ASP.net Smart forms, Exchange, Active Directory, Content Management Server, etc. It also has these great out of the box reporting capabilities to measure performance of deployed workflow solutions too. As well, its tight interation with BizTalk gives the K2 solution a nice System-to-System solution because it allows for integration to external systems. Notice as well, that K2 allows for development of multiple different UI protocals, meaning you can have a workflow solution that uses ASP.Net, InfoPath and WinForms all in the same solution. Contact me if you have any additional questions - J

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

davidwii — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:11:16 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by MFaus

quote:
Originally posted by davidwii

The Largest requriement is that no formal application, such as a client install of Infopath be required. They want the application to be fully web based and requiring only the standard browser to be used.

For users to be able to fill out InfoPath forms they have to have InfoPath installed on their machines. My experience with integration of InfoPath with BizTalk and/or Sharepoint is minimal, but I think you are going to need to use something in the ASP.NET realm to accomplish the level of compatibility and platform-independence that you are looking for.

However, instead of creating an ASP.NET application from scratch there is probably software already out there that you could utilize and customize to suit your needs.

Hope this helps!

---------------
Matt Faus

Yea, I've seen quite a bit of the Third Party software available. I'm hoping to avoid that...although it might not be easy. I figured the inclusion of ASP.NET would be requried, but is there like a hybrid of using InfoPath and ASP.NET together available....none third party of course.

Re: General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

Matt Faus — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:58:57 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by davidwii

The Largest requriement is that no formal application, such as a client install of Infopath be required. They want the application to be fully web based and requiring only the standard browser to be used.

For users to be able to fill out InfoPath forms they have to have InfoPath installed on their machines. My experience with integration of InfoPath with BizTalk and/or Sharepoint is minimal, but I think you are going to need to use something in the ASP.NET realm to accomplish the level of compatibility and platform-independence that you are looking for.

However, instead of creating an ASP.NET application from scratch there is probably software already out there that you could utilize and customize to suit your needs.

Hope this helps!

---------------
Matt Faus

General Questions on Correct Direction - Infopath

davidwii — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:44:07 GMT

I'm currently a newbie to infopath, sharepoint & etc. I come from an ASP and ASP.NET background and am being tasked to utilize Infopath for a new method of workflow at my corporation, but am getting very little direction as to what is the correct way to do things, only that we need to to use Infopath.

So, I have a few general questions that I was hoping the experts here could assist me with.

First, I'll briefly describe what is being desired. Essentially, we currently use Lotus Notes for all our Business Workflow requirements. So when a new project is needed to be started, there is a number of steps and processes that need to be done and as stated are currently being done in Lotus.

It would appear though, that Lotus is on the way out, so my company is looking at other options. We are a large enterprise corporation with nationwide employees as well as International employees.

The request is this: Utilize Infopath to create and develop an Application that automates the workflow process, allowing for everything to be done & signed off on via the application, including email reminders, digital signatures, etc.

The Largest requriement is that no formal application, such as a client install of Infopath be required. They want the application to be fully web based and requiring only the standard browser to be used.

What I'm finding is that this requirement alone may make their desires not possible. Is this correct? In my limited research so far, it would seem to have a fully functional infopath workflow application, the user needs to have infopath installed as a client application. I've seen alot of references to BizTalk Server. Is this how you utilize Infopath for a pure web application?

So to make a long inquiry longer, here is a list of my questions based upon my needs:

1. If the workflow application is to be fully web based, can Infopath coupled with Sharepoint alone to the job?

2. If yes, how is this accomplished? I've yet to see anything, even in my infopath development books that goes into detail on using infopath for development, but infopath essentially being solely behind the scenes.

3. If no, what is needed? Biztalk server? If yes to Biztalk server, how do they relate and what does Biztalk Server provide?

4. If none of the above is possible, is the way to go completely creating a custom ASP standalone web application the best choice?

I know this has been long winded, but I would appreciate any and all help. I don't wanna spend a ton of time barking up the wrong tree, just to find out what is being requested is not easily possible.